From early postings in this thread from Zooko, even before the Z9 was confirmed, it was said the soonest they could fork would be December 2018 or January 2019.
1 Like
Yeah, otherwise they would have to push back the release of sapling/overwinter to make it happen.
1 Like
If ASICs take over then you can remove GPUs from the equation. So only ASICs are left. Sure your right z9 mini will make more money when it comes out. But as soon as people start getting there hands on these the difficulty will sky rocket, and lets be honest only reason Bitmain is selling them is because they have a better model already.
So now ASICs take over and you only have z9minis because who else is making equihash ASICs. 3-6 months down the road the difficulty will have increased so much GPUs are long gone, your ASICs are only making $2-5 a day. Do you just keep adding ASICs to expand your farm now? Who is gonna pay for a ASIC at 2,100 when its making 2 a day? Only the people that are buying them RIGHT now will get any benfit from them, THEY are the greedy ones.
But you say “Wait, when they dont make as much money Bitmain will sell them for cheaper”. This might also be correct, look at their Ethereum miner, went from $800 to $2,100 after Ethereum announed “No Fork”. How does Ethereum’s annoucement make Bitmain’s ASICs more expensive to make?.. It doesnt, they knew there was a HUGE market to tap now and tripled their prices over night.
With no competition that is what you can do. So over time sure they will be cheaper, but they are still selling them for WAY more then what they are worth because they can. Its a monoply, Bitmain sets the price.
ASICs are raising the bar of entry, most people already own a graphics card inside their computer, and there is lots of places to buy graphics cards from. This allows people interested in mining to try it for the first time with equipment they already own(was how I got started).
How many sources can you buy a Bitmain miner from?..What if Bitmain decides not to release the next z9 version. You are stuck with the z9 mini for as long as they want to keep mining with the new ones, ever increasing the difficulty vs your old batch.
They always sell out and make you wait months, how does this help new users in a few months when they want to get into mining. Atleast the graphics card companies are not in the crypto game and using hardware they sell to users.
This is the problem, they control the supply of ASICs. If ASICs were just as available as graphics cards I dont think we would be having this debate. As there is no other miner that can keep up when ASICs take over, we are at the mercy of Bitmain. And if we are blessed by our Bitmain overlords, they might sell us the new version they have been using for what ever price they set it too, they set the price, they make the rules.
People keep saying ASICs are the next step in mining, this might be true. However it would be like making a “Super” car that is faster/cheaper/more efficient, however it destroys the roads as it goes over it so normal cars cant use it.
So now GPU miners in normal cars that have made this great network of roads what it is, will suffer from the new tech. Sure the tech is better, but we are not ready for it yet, the infrastructure isnt in place yet for ASICs. They destroy everything else in their path, with Bitmain reaping all the rewards. So do we let these few people ruin it for the vast majority?
Now ask youself, What is better for the network, 100K people mining at 100 hash rate, or 10k people at 1000 hashrate. Hashrate does not matter for decentralization, you want MORE people participating. More participants is better, hashrates mean nothing.
I just got into crypto in Nov 17, However back in 2013(I think) I was planing on GPU mining bitcoin right when the ASICs were comming out. After doing lots of research, it seemed like ASICs were basicly a scam and going to take over. Order now and wait 6 months, maybe make your money back if its not to late.
Only 3 companies from China were selling them at the time. So it turned me off from GPU mining, and mining in general after reading how ASICs become complete junk once new faster models come out.
After reading how Zcash and Equihash algo were ASIC RESISTANT that made me get into mining last year. Im still learning alot, but it still blows me away how people can be so uninformed how PoW, Hashrates, and Mining works…And how ASICs are the way to go even tho only 1 company is currently in control of the market.
As I understand it, the question is not IF we fork, but WHEN we fork.
@zooko has already stated that he wants to change the parameters to incur less gas - I know it seems like he is currently saying no to fork of ASIC’s but he cannot change the parameters with out knocking the asics off the network. It is already too late for that.
Now, the question is this, is the network hashrate going to allow this change to happen in 9 months? If we go by more hashes = more say, then anyone without an asic cannot have a say. Are they really going to say “yes, make my machine obsolete”? would you? what protects the network after that?
There is very little incentive for a miner to use their ASIC hardware to protect the network in 8 months time when I know it will be kicked off in a months time.
Please look at the antminer empty block issue. Can you propose a method for bitcoin to fix this on their network? You really need to have a good plan for this because you will be facing this exact scenario when you try to fork to adjust the parameters.
This is what concerns me most. zcash is not a finished product (no crypto is) and by taking ASIC’s on this early, it severely limits your ability to react to issues with the PoW, or similar (segwit would break bitmains asics on bitcoin for example, so no segwit for the foreseeable future.) With CPUs, GPU’s and FPGA’s you still have the ability to adjust and fine tune the coin. You will never get this back with asics. See my previous post for more info.
I think it is worth noting that as you stated SHA256 is a lot simpler than equihash and had a lot more real world deployment. So which is more likely to have mistakes or need fine tuning? what about adding extra features?
I would really appreciate it if you could acknowledge that these are an issue.
and @daira thanks for using your voice in this to represent an alternate side.
Thanks.
4 Likes
I think I see where you are coming from with this, and it’s a pretty good point to make actually. A “What If” scenario. What if a problem/bug/vulnerability is found that requires the Dev team to Hard Fork the network to fix it?? In a ASIC world, there is always the chance you end up bricking all your hashrate off the network. In the CPU/GPU space, miner software gets updated and you drive on. Is this another point of concern? Does letting ASIC take over introduce limitations on what the Dev Team can do in regards to the network and algo?
Your sacrificing flexibility on your network support, for very rigid, but highly efficient hardware…could this end up biting Zcash in the future. I never even considered that as a potential issue.
3 Likes
As if gpu advocates do not. This is machine vs. machine issue. Not man vs. machine.
My question is why do you support ASIC currently? With the Bitmain monoply, Them mining with the newest equipment, and limited supply of ASICs right now. What are the benfits for the network over the next 3-12 Months if ASICs come out vs GPUs? Screw over the many to help the few?
Edit: I have yet to see a good reason why ASICs are currently a good idea.
1 Like
We didn’t say “We will change it under those conditions”, we said “We may change it”. We still may. Or we may not.
2 Likes
Its kinda shady how posts were changed from WILL fork, to will LIKELY fork if ASICs join the network. Little things like that changing a month ago does seem SAF.
1 Like
What a hypocrite…only played with words’ game. Cheating every GPU miner’s effort. Why don’t you let ASIC in since you founded the coin? If ASIC is your ultimate dream, don’t tell GPU miner you are work on it.
1 Like
Well I am new here, and I want to mine… But I cant buy 15-20 1080ti because : 1st - they are not available for sale and 2nd - I don’t have such budget. So this ASIC miner is good option for me… and I think many more. This bitmain guys don’t let you to have more than 1 miner, so I think they want to prevent someone with cash to buy 1000 of them and be a BIG player. So what is the problem? Maybe I miss something…
1 Like
i am not a miner and computers are not my field at all but as far as my limited knowledge it seems that ASICs are inevitable and what is important for zcash is its privacy features. It is great to be decentralised and asic resistant I suppose (although I don’t know exactly why but I guess) but most important for zcash is privacy and decentralization is secondary. To be asic resistant is not the purpose with zcash, its purpose is to give us option to send value online anonymously.
1 Like
What if I told you you would make more right now with 1 1080TI then you will with a ASIC in 3 months? Look at other coins where ASICs came out and how fast they ramped up. So its not going to make you 40 a day in 2-3 months, 2-5 might be pushing it even.
And is it easier? You ordered it already im guessing, so now you have to wait 1-2 months to get it? How is that more accessable?
1 Like
Problem is Bitmain will mine with 10 000 off them but not with Mini…they will mine with maxi …my friend was also so excited for dash miner…he tough it will make him 30-40$ a day with one…by the time it arrived it maked 2-3$ a day and now is trash because makes less then electricity…and bitmain will not sell you better …but they have better for shure but for them sekf
1 Like
No I am not supporting nobody, and I am not ordering nothing 
How do you send money online anonymously when Bitmain controls the supply of ASICs? They can just keep making new versions and never release them and take over the network AKA more centralized. The problem is there isnt enough supply of ASICs yet and its controlled by 1 company, so atleast IMO its bad for the network currently. More distribution is always better.
It will only help the people that buy RIGHT now, if they are lucky and their shippments are not delayed by a month or 2.
So ASIC resistance was a BIG selling point for alot of people, and to claim it wasnt a selling point is a slap in the face, when it was stated many times. Why even try to sell ASIC resistants then if you were just gonna say “Ahhh well ASICs got us, we give up now”.
Well if Nvidia mines with their new GPU cards before announce them? Its the same… lets ban nvidia 
I think the problem is that you have rigs and they cant compare to asic. Also can you go to the shop and buy 1080ti ? I cant… they are sold
But NVIDIA does not mine…and Bitmain mines…that is huge difference…you dont need 1080ti to mine…1070ti mines also or 1060 …and GPU you can buy in any shop…and ASIC only on bitmain website in their private currency call bitcoincash
1 Like
Can you show me proof Nvidia is in the mining business and has warehouses dedicated to mining? Im open to links. Atleast Nvidia has 1 competitor, if AMD makes a better card for cheaper, people will buy that instead. And there is alot of 2nd hand vendors for graphics cards available right now compared to ASICs.
and here is 1080Ti right now NVIDIA GTX 1080 Ti Series In Stock Tracker - NowInStock.net
Easy, I use zcash.
20 chars