ZEC/ZCash will die, ZClassic is here now


#35

No you're right. Actually I agree with you on all points of this. I mean, look at mining. There are a only so many GPUs on earth and suddenly far more currency to mine using them.

That's why I'm on a mission to get me some GPUs.


#36

Cant trust that they didn't premine though.. It's known that someone mined a ton of ZCL before it was well known how to mine it because you took away the slow start.

Bad news for its long term value.


#37

yet we can not just accuse him of pre-mining - though i "think" that he was open about the time of the fork and the launch. I think he is a pretty honest person.

long term value will be decided by the markets, and it is being picked up instead of shoved aside... so it looks like it will have a bright future... like it or not

it is a great risk mining ZClassic, but that risk could pay off bigtime if it gets picked up by exchanges like polo, kraken, bter or yunbi

risk and reward are highly correlated... thats just finance


#38

Yup
-Proud owner of 27zcl who wishes he had some more.


#39

LOL, im considering building another rig just for ZCL so I can keep all my current rigs pointed at ZCash


#40

Hi folks! Rhett seems like a nice guy. I'd ask that people be nicer to each other on this forum. I don't like to read threads people insulting each other or accusing each other of bad motives. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are plenty of forums where that is the norm. Maybe reddit? Bitcointalk? Whatever, just not here please.

In my ever-so-humble opinion, the Founders' Reward is really good for Zcash. I even think it might turn out, in a few years, that the Founders' Reward was Zcash v1's best feature!

A lot of the criticisms of the Founders' Reward are sort of "backward-looking". The criticism is basically that the Founders' Reward (implicitly viewed as a cost paid by the users of Zcash to pay for the creation of Zcash 1.0) is overpriced. This would be a perfectly valid criticism if the Founders' Reward were a standard premine, where the money were given to the founders in the first block. (Although you could still quibble about whether it is overpriced or not. Pricing is hard.)

But, the Founders' Reward is not a premine, and I don't think of it as (primarily) a reward for previous work. It's not what users pay for the creation of Zcash v1.0, it is what they pay for the creation of future versions of Zcash over the next 4 years. The reason this is actually a realistic way to think about it is that we, the founders, haven't gotten any profit out of it yet, not until we start selling it, or using it to pay our bills.

(Which by the way is potentially about to start happening, to some fraction of the ~8600ⓩ that has already been allocated to the Founders' Reward, soon: https://z.cash/blog/founders-reward-transfers.html . I say "some fraction" because that ~8600ⓩ is going to get split up among a large number of investors, and they will probably have a variety of sell-vs-hold decisions. By the way, although https://z.cash/blog/continued-funding-and-transparency.html shows the way the 10% Founders' Reward pie slice gets sub-sliced, the first distribution of the Founders' Reward, which is due to happen soon, is going to the investors, because their sub-slice get distributed first.)

So, if everyone were to start valuing ZEC at 0 now, then we will have received 0 from the Founders' Reward! But the world would still have gained Zcash v1.0. So, by valuing ZEC at greater than 0, you are partially rewarding us for having created Zcash v1.0, but to a much greater extent you're incentivizing and resourcing us to create future versions of Zcash.

(Hm. I guess we shouldn't have named it "Founders' Reward" then, should we have! Should've been named "Founders' Fund".)

The more highly people value ZEC over the coming months and years, then the more incentives and resources the Zcash Company and the Zcash Foundation will have to improve Zcash. (Not to mention the other Founders — the investors and the individuals — who I hope will be inspired to launch on Zcash-improving projects of their own!)

So, we'll see how this plays out over the next four years. The worst outcome would be if people value ZEC highly, making the Founders' Reward/Fund into a rich stream of incentives and resources, but we fuck up and do a bad job of improving the protocol. That might spell the end of the idea of Founders' Funds!

But, if there is a positive feedback loop where the more improvements we make to Zcash, the more valuable our future stream of rewards is, and the more valuable our future stream of rewards is, the more improvements we make to Zcash, then people will look back on it as having been a great idea.

Anyway, I'm not telling you what to do. Buy or mine ZClassic if that feels right to you.

I'm happy about ZClassic's existence because it is a fallback in case Zcash implodes (in a way that doesn't also take out ZClassic). And, it is a semi-independent community, which means it adds a degree of redundancy (which means resilience) to the development effort. (Although they really need help! Rhett has been asking for multiple people to review the merge of Zcash 1.0.2 with ZClassic, and last I checked nobody had done the review. If you're going to invest some of your time and money into ZClassic, then you should also consider contributing in that way!)

Also because Rhett seems like a relatively nice person, and I value positive interactions with people that I interact with. It makes me happier and makes my life better, and I also believe that it makes for more effective cooperation, and increases our chances of succeeding at our overarching goals of liberating and empowering humanity before it is too late.

People using the ZClassic blockchain have already encountered one bug, and since I was hanging out in the ZClassic Slack, overhearing them talk about it caused me to realize that it might be a serious bug. That kind of thing is really helpful. And, they are talking about doing a stress test on the live ZCL mainnet. Very cool! Would love to see the results of that.

Okay, this has been pretty rambling. Hope I didn't say anything totally stupid or leave out anything important.


Control of /r/Zcash subreddit
#41

Thats answer is brilliant as always zooko, but i think the main concern of people who really care about zcash, in crypto-etically-way, is the openness of zcash founders reward for investors or simply people. Seems that was a very closed group..


#42

Yes, Creighton seems like a good guy, i dont think he is planning anything sinister, he seems to have the same outlook as you, zooko, a better future for people. thanks for chiming in! :slight_smile: nice to hear from you directly sometimes :slight_smile:


#43

I don't see any issue with the "Reward" this looks very normal for me for some guys that have invested a lot of time and work, they have also to eat and pay the bills.

Anyway, hope this will be the most secure and used digital currency #zcash


#44

I just hope there won't be ever possible to mine Zcash or Zclassic for tthat matter, with ASCI miners.
If that happens, ZEC will drop under 1$, and ZCL under 0,01$.


#45

You are right that #FoundersFund would have created better optics Zooko.


#46

Great respect for your positive attitude!

Though I think the most interesting topic in all that is the question how to fund development?
When Bitcoin started miners and developers have been (probably) the same persons and there was no big competition, so a dev could get his stash of coins quite easily. Also the price increase was so slow over several years that the non-mining devs could easily buy in cheap and therefore get their share in the future value increase.

That model seemed to have worked for Bitcoin (though probably not for all devs), but cannot be repeated anymore as the miners are just waiting for the next big thing where they can point their gpu rigs to, so a normal dev who is not a pro miner will not have much success to get a reward by early mining.
Also buying in early is more troublesome as price often grows very fast and some devs simply don't have much savings on the side to be also investors in their own coin. Diversification of investment is another reason to not put all on the same card. Beside that, why a dev should waste his resources and time in mining or speculating anyway just to get his fair reward for his work?

So which models are left?
One option is to operate as traditional VC funded company like Zcash and Blockstream is doing.
Another option is to experiment with new forms of DAOs (not referring to TheDAO as a prototype of the DAO idea).
To have no funding model at all and just rely on altruistic contribution might be an option as well, though it usually has very low success rate and can be considered by far the most difficult variant.

The traditional model has the advantage to be tested many times and to carry therefore lower risk. Devs can focus on the actual work and can count with a professional work environment.
The downside is that it creates some dependencies and does not breathe the openness which is often expected from Blockchain based projects (closed to accredited investors, devs are employed,...).

The DAO model seems to me personally the most attractive one and the model I plan for my own project (Bitsquare). Though from my own experience I know how hard it is and how much effort it takes. Time and energy which is then missing to stay focused on the core project. Also legally it operates on thin ice. So I perfectly understand that it is not the preferred option for everyone.

The altruistic model is for me not really an option and it does not solve an important problem but just ignore it: People who are creating value should get rewarded for that.

So back to ZClassic I have following problems:
- I find it un-ethical to take the hard work of others and criticize that they want to get a reward for that work.
- I find it unfair and wrong to put the miners in the one and only position who are allowed to earn revenue, though they have not added value as long the overall project has no big value to secure. What would a miner do without devs who created what they mine? Sure miners have an important role but so the devs.
- I think the slow start for mining reward is a good idea, avoiding that the insiders (project initiators) abuse their position to get a big stake in the first coins.
- Criticizing trademark registration of Zcash but being proud of running patents (Rhett's Twitter account profile) does not fit well together to me.

Anyway I also think that an alternative fork of Zcash should make it only stronger and adds some resilience. Just would have preferred that they did it in a more ethical and civilized manner.


#47

Yeah the altruistic model isn't working too well right now for me, over a month spent on porting Zcash to non-linux/non-x86 platforms, I've succeeded with Mac and ARM so far (Windows still not done), and have less than $200 to show for it....which people toss tons of BTC at mining software.

People somehow miss the fact that:

More #zcash platforms = more developers = more applications = more users = more demand for ZEC = higher price for ZEC


#48

Well from what I understand you should be able to ask for a piece of the founders' reward pie. Since the philosophy here seems to be that everyone that creates software for the zcash community should be incentiviced...

I personally think that having one party holding 20% in the short term and 10% in the long term of the total supply is very risky for a global currency (and as I understand this is where you are headed)

In the end the market will decide.


#49

Well, that's not how the Founder's Reward works. I've gone out on a limb by putting so much effort into porting it on my own without funding ahead of time, and I'm hoping that that pays off.

When the Zcash Foundation is fully set up some time in the next 6 months, multiple employees of ZcashCo have indicated that they're going to put my name in the hat for a grant to support my ongoing ports and other open source Zcash contributions, but that's a long way off and not a sure thing by any means.

If I get my work in front of the current Zcash investors and other stakeholders enough, I'd like to think that at some point they'll see that I'm working in their best interests and kick in some donations or other funding.

If anyone's feeling generous until then:
Donations in BTC to: 1L33E8M1LdXmAtgWaSgAVr4TEyDrLWk69B
in ZEC to: t1WeYg7Vwe1E2N5sxY6MQ335x4i12KZwSMu
or in dollars via PayPal to radix42@gmail.com


#50

the first distribution of the Founders' Reward, which is due to happen soon, is going to the investors, because their sub-slice get distributed first.

So the first 331,250 ZEC from the Founders' Reward will be distributed to the investors, and your funding only begins after that (in about 7 months or so)?


#51

No more profitable to mine ZEC or ZCL except developers and founders. It's over. :cry:


#52

First SeenFri 28 Oct 2016 09:19:56 -07 (23 days ago)Last SeenSun 20 Nov 2016 04:02:26 -07 (4 minutes ago)Transparent Balance11576.606875 ZECBlocks Mined0Txns Sent0Txns Received13609Total Sent0 ZECTotal Received11576.606875 ZEC

I think its a bit less...

11576.606875 ZEC


#53

You're looking at the situation from the wrong angle, every coin has several evolutional ways, here are some of them (most common):

1) Bitcoin-like, coin finds it's practical use in real world, you can use it for your everyday needs, golden standard or fiat-alternative if I can say so. Can be reached by high acceptance of crypto-community and financial structures, takes minimum 2-4 years period.
2) Ethereum-like, perspective technology and idea, accepted nearly from its start and then nearly ruined by its development team and their decisions/holes in protocol. What we see now is 2 hard forks, vision that devs are completely corp-ruled and lack of trust in coin. Crypto is not like something that needs centralised control.
3) Altcoin, coin made mostly for mining-only, can have some value, but only mine-and-sell algo works here, very rarely can have any single-purpose application use IRL.
4) Pump-n-Dump, just another clone of an existing coin, made only to make some money in a short period (of course, for its devs), hundreds of them around, pure scam.

Currently Zcash is too young to say something definitely, but it does not seem 3) or 4), it has protocol realisation issues like 2) and perspectively bright future as 1) has.

Mine to sell may be a good choice if you pay your bills from crypto-income, but wiser will be to mine and keep the coin and watch it for at least 2-3 years (like crypto investors do, they're just buying cheap coin from you now to sell it in future for 3-4 times higher price).

Technology is very perspective and potentially ASIC-resistant, in 4-6 years Zcash can switch places with Bitcoin (just look at fiatleak.com and see who wants to regulate bitcoin market :wink:, also Bitcoin ecosystem step-by-step becomes centralised in PRC (±60-70% of hashing power))

Anyway, everyone is free to choose what to do, if I'd choose to mine-and-sell, Zcash'll still be the most profitable coin to mine (of course if you mine it on GPUs, CPUs are miles behind), in my case it's 50$ difference between Eth and ZEC pure income a day (not so large garage mining facility driven with ±50% green power)


#54

Sooo funny that noone talks about http://zcoin.tech here. It's like it does not exist. We had zcash and zcoin and only now comes zclassic. I think Zcoin is a bit more interesting than zclassic by trying to be a bit different from zcash.