Let’s talk about ASIC mining

yeah, totally forgot the argumentation that everybody moving into another direction as GPU-POW is bribed, corrupted, greedy, betraying and so on.

About the average joe and what suits better. I can speak at least from real experience in all of these as i do all 3: POW-GPU, POW-Asic, POS.

I get the best results with least afford and way less investment with POS, easy as that. 2nd best is Asic mining, and the last one by now is GPU mining. So from my business Point of view i’am favouring POS, of course everybod has it’s own views, investment rules, ROI views and whatever.

By the way, one thing i like with POS investments, i can make them liquid within minutes as no more hardware is needed, not that it matters for you, just came into my mind and maybe some day (far future) you will see how comfortable it is to have POS, lol, no electricity cost, no hardware failures, no miningpool troubles, no hardware repairs, no more 10km of cables, no special software/miners, no routers, no 1000’s working hours … I just enjoy it :slight_smile:

The problem with POS is the actual cost! You make it sound easy, but say with Ethereum your stake is 32 at today’s market value that’s $13,208.32. It would be cheaper to mine with GPU’s or Asic! When they make the stake reasonable where your mother can afford it… Then POS might work.

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Not sure how many coins will really be fairly distributed, how many coins will survive at the end and such things. That would be pure speculation. All i’am absolutly confident about is that since now a major change has begun, from POW to POS or Hybrid POW/POS, and eventually other alternatives.
It’s just obvious that POW, expect for some minority projects, isn’t a good option. Observing all the preperations by a lot of coins (talking about top 100 coins only) is just more evidience that it will happen the next 12 months.

But hey mate, i could be totally wrong, just my observation and prediction, time will tell. Maybe something else is even better, newer, we will see…

I said it many times bevor, that ETH proposal with 32 ETH isn’t fair, neither good in my opinion. Additionally i’am not an Ethereum fan anyway so it’s not on my radar at all and i hold exactly only 10 ETH and won’t increase it for sure. Even with my E3 i mine ETC.

However, back to topic, POS IS easy, because POS is not only ethereum.
And than again, when ETH goes hybrid first the POW reward will be way less, forgot the exact number right now, and than your calculation better with GPU mostly won’t hold true anymore.

Just researched it again: “block reward would be reduced from 3 ETH to 0.6 ETH per block for Proof of Work miners”. Means POW reward is only 20% of the current reward and i have serious doubts if this would be more profitable than ETH POS. Even more a feeling it would be negative after electricity.

Other than that and as said allready, i hope the make the stake as low as 1ETH so indeed everybody can access it. That’s something i totally agree with you, even ETH POS/POW/Mining is of 0 interest for me personally.

Moving to increase someone’s profit is not equal to “bribed, corrupted, greedy, betraying”, but just think about ICO and MN(masternode) coins quantity domination in Bitcointalk anouncements. They are much more interesting and profitable for devs. PoS too. But clever devs like Ethereum’s prefer to move as slow as possible to prevent in-market scam caused by extremely high precentage of ICOed ethers(which I think is the main Ethereum’s disadvantage).
P.S If whole coin lifecycle(not only last 5-10% distribution) was PoS, who will be the first holders?

That’s pretty up to the setup a given project/team has choosen. Everything is possible. From unfair staking a given % of the overall supply up to nothing staking. That’s one of the things i like, there are 1001 possible setups possible from favouring randomness, favouring used wallets up to whatever you imagine. It’s too new in my opinion to say what the perfect setup will be. Same goes for first holders/stakers. This could be unfair the team itself or it could be looked again without staking. Every project for sure will handle things different.

And which economical value would be in coins that were spread randomly or without any significant effort. I’ve not participated in huge number of airdrops but when I’ve done it I’ve usually tried to sell them ASAP. For some coins I was too late and there were no buy orders, only sell wall.

You missunderstood me or i explained it bad due my English. With randomly i mean a random factor, some POS are experimenting with it. In the meaning there is some random factor that NOT only the biggest stake gets the mining job, but there is a x% of chance that even a real small stake gets a mining job.

I’am not competent in airdrops as i never participated in any to be honest. So everything related to airdrops is out of my reach and experience.

I was using ETH as a example. Now on the other coins you mention that will go to POS. Maybe they will. They are sitting back and watching Ethereum to see how it works for them.POS is still a gamble that it will do what they want from it. This crypto world we live in is all speculations.

Totally agree on that one. Whole crypto so far is a gamble and what we take as a given thing as miners today is maybe worth nothing tomorrow (in the meaning of coins we hold). Nobody knows.
And yes, indeed many are sitting back and watching Ethereum, even Zcash in my opinion, but others as well take the “do it bevor ETH” route, some doing pretty good, some totally fail, some with a good interesting concept and some others with a doomed to fail approach.

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Maybe you’ve misunderstood my P.S? It was about initial distribution when there are no coins emited and there are no stakes. I’ve understood your version of it as airdrop on another coin wallets or so. Maybe you have another vision? But no matter how it will be intially distributed, every method will be less fair than PoW - ICO,airdrop or so. Even PoS coins need ininial PoW-mining just to ensure that enriching devs is not it’s only aim. So many time passed but anyone has’t proposed better sollution.

I love how people just gloss over this. That’s pretty major, imo.

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Interesting article link on what I found on Vertcoin website:

Must be an old article, as caspar and the tendermint POS protocols allready handle all these issues mentioned there.

When individuals can’t fill network with GPUs fast enough after price rise, companies can enter. Looks like natural market demand on network securing. On flat market such numbers of custom-made GPUs are impossible.

Actually it was bevor the price raise. November 2017, “Nvidia and Cointed: Creating the Ultimate Mining GPU”

P.S.: Nvidia, AMD, Zotac are even listed as the main partners of Cointed, just as a sidenote.

Perfect example of the false equivalence fallacy:

Those 125,000 GPUs were many times more expensive per hash than the Equihash ASICs and they are no more efficient than retail GPUs.

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  • Why would someone purchase 125,000 custom made GPU’s if they are not more efficient or way cheaper or whatever? Especially designed excludes the comparasion to retail GPU. Actually your False equivalence wikipedia post fits perfectly to your statement :slight_smile: False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not.

or in short, if retail gpu’s do the job they didn’t need especially designed better gpu’s.

Maybe retail GPUs were in short supply.

Maybe the buyer was able to get a slight discount if he bought in bulk.

Maybe the buyer was able to get a slight discount if the cards didn’t include DVI ports.

If we assume that the 125,000 GPUs were the equivalent of GTX 1060s and were sold at 80% of the retail cost, we can estimate that this resulted in roughly the following:

25 million spent

37.5 MH being added to the Zcash network

Now let’s look at the equivalent spending on ASICs:

25 million spent

550 MH being added to the Zcash network

Do you see the difference here? The huge bulk order of GPUs doesn’t drive up the diffiuclty in nearly the same way as the ASICs do. (For my estimates, I’m using $200 and 300 h/s for GPUs, and $500 and 11,000 h/s for ASICs.)

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Maybe, maybe 1060, maybe 1080ti, maybe something else, just maybe … it seems so secret that even no information about the cards is available that got delivered, at least i was not able to find else than special designed gpu’s. Why making it a secret if it’s just 1060’s?? The only answer, following your thinking here is, there must be more behind it that isn’t for the public.

Maybe the price was 80% like you guess, maybe 60%, maybe only 25% of the retail price and that 125,000 gpu bulk order? Maybe…

Actually i even forgot to add another detail, the special written software for these (no idea if by nvidia or inhouse), anyway, again not available to the public. Not that it matters that much.

And now you really made a calculation based on what exactly? A wild guess (gpus) versus known numbers (asics) on equihash? Again a perfect example of false equivalance. Never thought i would see 2 perfect examples for false equivalence within 2 minutes, interesting :slight_smile: Good job :ok_hand: